Racism.
Probably one of the ugliest words in the English language.
Hating someone, or disliking someone, or simply looking down on someone, or thinking they are a lesser person, for no reason save the color of their skin. It absolutely goes beyond my ability to conceptualize. I know it's real. I know it is an integral part of some folk's being. I have seen it. I have watched it. I have felt it. I am the parent, friend, coworker, ally, of many people of many colors, so I am always tuned in to any undercurrents of "isms". They are so ugly and senseless, they make no sense to me.
And, racism is something I constantly see ascribed to the FLDS.
On the other hand, it is not something I have experienced from the FLDS individuals I have come to know. Those persons I have come to know are as offended by racism, and all of the isms, and all their awful permutations, as I am.
So, just because I feel I need to try and articulate what I've learned, I'm going to take a stab at writing about it. I may be completely off target. I may have completely not understood what I think I have learned. But here goes;
God loves everyone. Plain and simple. EVERYONE. Everyone is born with the opportunity to live a good life, and to make their way to heaven. What a good and righteous life is, is determined by the knowledge and beliefs of the group you are born into, or raised with, or have consciously adopted. (If you're born and raised in a Muslim country, as a Muslim, obviously then, living the best life you can, by the standards you are taught, is what makes you righteous. And so on, for other ways and places.) Thing is, no matter who you are, where you're born, etc., if you do the best you can to live a good life, God will know that, and your reward will be heaven. With every opportunity to work toward the highest levels.
Now, we get to the specifics....
The FLDS believe that they are the direct line of the Priesthood that Jesus will return through, or to...(I'm not sure on that one.) They also believe that the line that persons of color are of, is the line Satan will return through. They absolutely do not believe every person of color is Satan.
So, they abjectly do not believe in misogyny for FLDS faithful. That's not to say that others cannot make the choice to inter-marry. As far as making one's way to heaven, a righteous person of color has the same opportunity as does any of the rest of us.
There may be individuals within the FLDS who are racist. There are racists everywhere. And if someone harbors those kinds of feelings, it is considered wrong, by the FLDS beliefs. Their beliefs teach that they are to love all of God's children. Period. I've never heard of any exceptions where hate is allowed.
That is true of every religion I know of. But purporting to be Christian never seemed to stop the KKK. Purporting to be Christian didn't have much effect on George Wallace
& Co.. Purporting to be Muslim doesn't seem to have much effect on the Taliban. Purporting to be Buddhists didn't have a lot of effect on the Khmer Rouge.
To address the comments about Warren Jeffs comments, before they even start; the tape that is so widely circulated is one of Jeffs, when he was a teacher, long before he became Prphet, reading the words of a long passed Prophet. And in his dictations were of a dream.....and, how he interpreted the dream was about Wisan and his cohorts....none of whom are persons of color.
Also, despite his many travels, Jeffs is a small town person with limited experiences in the larger world. When he was out of town, his interactions were still with those from his community, so his actual experiences were limited. One's way of framing lessons can only be as big and open as one's world.
Since Pliggy is often the "face of the FLDS", rather than defend him in a thread post, I want to say here, that he is the person who has given me this understanding. Not just through discussions, because we have had many, but also through observing him. He has been in my home. He has interacted with my sons and friends. He has shaken hands, and laughed and talked and shared stories, with all sorts of people. He has never shown anything but grace, humor, and goodwill. Period. There are no exceptions to this. He is an extremely likable young man, who exemplifies his religion through his living.
I am not a follower of any specific religion, but my God is the same God of everyone. And the God I am coming to know, wouldn't ask any more of anyone, than this young man gives in his life, today. So folks who read this, and read Pliggy's comments to various things may take exception to what he has to say. Folks may vehemently disagree with his positions on things. But no one has any room to ever call him racist. If he writes something you might interpret as 'racist', ask for clarification. Remember, we do have cultural differences that alter how we use language. So get clarity. Don't sling names around.
And, just for the record, those others in the FLDS community that I have had the privilege of having discussions with, have shared the same explanation and beliefs about God and the color of folk's skin.
Note: Pliggy has left a more accurate and complete description of the FLDS beliefs under comments. His is the tenth comment down. Mine above is "approaching" accuracy, but I missed the mark...I appologize.
7 years ago
77 comments:
Regina,
I'm really glad you're presenting these issues that may have caused some strife and disagreement among those of us who are not FLDS not knowledgable about the FLDS.
As we learn about one another - the FLDS and the non-FLDS - I trust there will be better understanding and acceptance of each other as individuals.
Too often we judge a whole denomination by what is known about its leaders or by our knowledge of personal members.
Thank you for bringing 'the rest of the story' to us so that we are better informed.
Best wishes.
S.R.,
I'm trying. The more and more I have gotten to know some of the folks who are FLDS, the more I am struck by how similar we are. The differences are negligible.
They are not some bizarre little group, closed off from the world, living a strange lifestyle.
Yes, their chosen lifestyle has some stark aspects...like the clothing the women wear...that creates the appearance of "different", but over all, they are very much like any other families, struggling, living, doing the best they can....
The stories, to the extent that any of them are true, or contain truths, are the exceptions...and often the "spun" exceptions of individuals who are angry...maybe rightly angry, but their anger has twisted their perceptions...or tainted their telling....
So, I'm trying...and who knows? I may be completely off base...but I'm sure Pliggy, and others, will let me know! *smile*
Regina,
I understand your position, but have to disagree.
If a private enterprise would not allow a person of color to move up to the highest position in their organization, solely because of the color of their skin, that is, in and of itself, racism. We would not candy-coat it if it were an IBM or J.C. Penny or other major corporation, and we should not ignore it in this case.
I am not saying that they do not have the right to believe whatever they want - they most certainly do. But that does not negate the racism that is present and that has been recognized by many groups.
I realize that the FLDS have a directive to treat blacks "properly" but they also believe that they are to be "given respect according to the obedience they give." In and of itself, that is racist, in my opinion.
Finally, while you have a good relation with Alan, he is less than cordial to those that disagree with him. Look for his posts dealing with myself, Ron, or anyone else who disagrees with him...
Bluesman, If the religion itself has some sort of "racism", based on the ability to attain the highest level of heaven, then the Mormon religion, in it's entirety, including any sub-groups, has a problem. As I understand it, attainment of heaven's highest levels is predicated on attachment to a man, a priesthood holder. A woman cannot, unattached to a man, get into heaven. So sexism is at play here...bigtime!
Certainly any corporation that would not allow a woman to attain it's highest levels, just because of gender is practicing illegal bias. Gender is as much a protected element of employment as race, or physical abilities and differences.
Thing is, that's a legal permutation of the concept. It is not how the average person defines racism. In the colloquial, or "average person" definition of racism, the FLDS as a religion, does not approve of hating or belittling, or discriminating against, anyone based on their color.
As for pliggy making comments, I'm not going to go back and do any sort of search. You, Ron, and pliggy, have been having at it toward one another since forever....and all of you have had some pretty crappy things to say...mostly in the heat of arguments and emotions about the issues....
Which, is an acknowledgment of each of your humanity and fallibility....we all say and do things we wish we could undo, from time to time and under the "right" set of circumstances....
I know full well, if given the opportunity, I would make different choices on how I would express some things. Maybe in another incarnation I will get to redo some things. But for now, all I can do is attempt to explain and clarify. If there's another trick, please share it!!!!
Otherwise, keep on keepin' on and be glad no one knows who you are to be able to pick over your bones!!!!!!!! *smile*
"You, Ron, and pliggy, have been having at it toward one another since forever....and all of you have had some pretty crappy things to say...mostly in the heat of arguments and emotions about the issues...."
LOL, true, and I freely admit that I have said such things. I just couldn't allow it to pass without comment that he is not racist - but I will freely admit that he is probably very nice to a great many people, including yourself...
Bluesman,
I think, or maybe more correctly, I am guessing, that you, like me, are hyper tuned in to racism....however subtle, our radar is "on".
For myself, I have learned, because of my hyper-vigilence, that I have to constantly question my own impressions...."Is this REALLY racism, or is it just the way this person uses language? What was/is the REAL intent?"
With pliggy, and others, I have found myself to be in error about my first impression(s) when I have more closely examined what they said, how they said it, and why...and put their words in the context of their culture.
I find myself having to do this regularly with folks I deal with from say, very rural, poverty stricken, homogenous communities here in Pa. I aprticularly have to do this "re-examination" when I deal with folks who come from a very monied, upper-crusty world. Especially for those who have never lived in any other world....
I would really dislike, and miss out on much, if I held everyone to my first impressions or initial understandings of how they talk.....
If I held Ron to that kind of standard, given some of his posts of a late evening here and there, I'd be actively searching for his true identity to hang, draw, and quarter him.....
But I know enough from his 'average' posting to know that he is at heart, your basic bleeding heart liberal, that he genuinely doesn't hate for the sake of hating, and that his emotions get in the way of his good sense when he's tired and on overload....and he says stupid, thoughtless, crass things....
I know you at times take a public position on issues you privately may question. You have a 'public stance'. Especially when it comes to L.E.
I know that you know there is a corupt, ugly side to how some LE folks behave. I know you know that there are corners cut, folks abused, and laws ignored, by LE. But you also believe, for a variety of reasons, that LE in general, gets a 'bad rep' in the press, and in the minds of the average person. And the lowman on the totem pole in LE gets screwed by the 'top dogs'. So you have this public face.
I know that any thinking lawyer questions the construct of some laws. You may agree, inspirit, with the sentiments behind some laws, but you know, full well, they are constructed badly...yet you truly believe that if one simply ignores laws, there is an insidious erosion of our fundamental construct as a nation...so you keep your public face...
So, all that being said...I think you need to examine a bit more closely, how you draw conclusions about individuals...
And by what and how you hold folks accountable....
Regina,
Probably true as to the sensitivity, but in this case, it is not just how they use the language, it is how they think. We'll have to agree to disagree on this, while agreeing that the individuals like Alan can demonstrate good qualities while harboring what I believe to be racist beliefs.
I do believe that for the most part (99.999%), LE officers are honest, honorable folks. I don't have a problem with the corrupt ones being put away, or even being held to a higher standard in some regards, but all of them, even the bad ones, deserve good representation. My public face on this is not much different from my private one. Take a look at this video, especially the part from 0:28 to 0:41 - it describes how I view the way that LE officers are treated, and the satisfaction I get from helping them. That, and the fact that I'd rather be on my Harley than in the office...
There are many laws that are poorly constructed, but in this case, I don't think that the Bigamy statute is one of them. There is sufficient case law on it in Texas to provide ample explanation of what is prohibited, even if one doesn't agree with the premises of the statute.
I do "truly believe that if one simply ignores laws, there is an insidious erosion of our fundamental construct as a nation". If people are free to ignore the law, then we will descend into anarchy...
Bluesman,
In a previous incarnation, I held the same beliefs about union officials...but that is an incarnation not available for public picking!
As for the construct of law(s), being flawed, I was thinking more in general, rather than Texas specific. (Although, I do think there are problems with some of the inherent conflicts in the Texas statute.) If Federal language was changed to "civil union", leaving the term 'marriage' to religious or parochial definition, it would go a long way toward resolving the problems. People who discuss it, make an excellent point when they talk about consenting adults having the legal right to any kind or construct of multiple partner relationships, if they don't call those relationships marriage....the minute that word is used, all sorts of laws kick in....that otherwise would not....despite the fact that the elements of the relationship are identical.
Since culture collides with law because of the multiple and subjective uses of a particular word, it seems that change to a neutral and unambiguous word is incumbant on government to best serve all of it's people.
If I held Ron to that kind of standard, given some of his posts of a late evening here and there, I'd be actively searching for his true identity to hang, draw, and quarter him.....
I'm reformed since my conviction for BWI (blogging while intoxicated).
Honest, I'm a new man.
Dear Mom from Pennsylvania,
You make it very difficult for me to post here! I wish I was as good as you portray, I know I need to do better! Thanks for giving me something to live up to!
But to your post...
"The FLDS believe that they are the direct line of the Priesthood that Jesus will return through, or to...(I'm not sure on that one.)"
We believe that he still has his body, and won't be returning as a child again. When He returns it will be to a city built by the more righteous. But we do believe that we come from a direct line of Ephriam, one of the Tribes of Israel. The one that He will return to.
"They also believe that the line that persons of color are of, is the line Satan will return through."
No, we believe that they are of the lineage of Cain, and Ham, and because of that they have been "cursed". The curse is also a blessing because they are not required to live the standards that we are here. They cannot have the same curse as we can if we fail in our mission here. We believe that all lived a life before we came as babies in the flesh here. During that life we chose of which family we are born into here.
We cannot be Priests if we mix with that race (or any other), and our children cannot either. UNTIL the Savior comes and ALL who are righteous will be given the opportunity, whether in life or in death, to become Priests.
In the FLDS church only Priests can be "sealed" FOREVER with wives and sons. In the end ALL will have this opportunity, and that is how I think of, and treat people.
Bluesman and his constant "your a racist" rants only prove one thing, and that is his inability to try to be objective. Not only that I can PLAINLY see a double standard regarding himself and his own culture. THAT is why I try to point out his absurd logic. If I was to walk onto the reservation he grew up on, could "I" be allowed into membership of the tribe? Of course not, and I respect that, I don't feel "insulted" by that in any way.
"he is less than cordial to those that disagree with him. Look for his posts dealing with myself, Ron, or anyone else who disagrees with him..."
I do apologize, I have been able to throw the mud others think they are covering me with.
"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi
But as far as "lawmen" vs "polygamist men", some of the most honorable I have ever seen were both, and the most dishonorable felt they had the right to "FIX" the other.
Pliggy,
I have never claimed a need to 'fix' any of the FLDS, nor do I believe that they need fixing.
They are responsible for obeying the law, and when they violate it, they should be held accountable.
The fact that you don't agree with the law, whether for religious beliefs or other reasons is immaterial. You are still bound to obey it or to deal with the consequences of violating it.
From Blues video 28-41
""We believe in bucking the system that's built to smash individuals like bugs on the windshield... Some of us believe in the Man Upstairs. All of us believe in sticking it to "the man" down here."
Blues, if you only could be in the shoes of your own ancestors...
"The law" is awful. "Consequences" for awful laws are even more awful. If you weren't so blinded the hatred for "bigamy", you would know that. You have absolutely no respect for my religion, and my heritage. You would arrest my own parents on the basis of "the law". The feeling IS NOT mutual.
And to try to discuss this with you is insulting my own dignity. If you can't move toward tolerance, you will end up being my enemy. I will not change for you, or anyone else. My right to exist is none of your business, or your stupid "law"'s business.
Ron,
Friends just gave me a lovely bottle of a very nice unblended scotch....
If I am notably absent on occasion, I now KNOW some of you will understand!
Pliggy,
You repeatedly make a false assumption that I care one way or another about bigamy and polygamy. I don't. If you can get it legalized, fine, I'm all for your right to practice it. I don't care about the morals for or against it.
I don't believe in your religion, nor in any revealed religion, but I don't begrudge you your belief in it - that is your choice, and only you can determine if it is right for you or not.
That right to believe does not, however, incorporate the right to violate the law. If the law is wrong, work to change it. If you violate it, you (like everyone else) is accountable for that violation.
I have no desire to be your enemy, but if by moving towards tolerance you mean ignoring the criminal violations, that isn't going to happen. That has nothing to do with your right to exist or beliefs, it has to do with actions.
Basically Pliggy, I am not willing to set aside a group of people (any group, not just the FLDS) and state that it is in any way acceptable for them to violate the law.
"violate the law"
You do it all the time.
We violate "the law"* because the law was written to stop our religion. That is obvious. Just imagine life as an emergency ride to the hospital. We speed because getting to the hospital is more important than our worry about your desire to enforce "the law"*.
* meaning a law only violated if you "purport" that it is "good", but if you don't care, nobody else does either. How many women have you slept with?
Blues,
Sometimes you can't change it unless you first violate it.
P.S. I like you a little more now that I know you would rather be out riding. It's a grand thing, your video says it all.
Pliggy,
The elements of the Bigamy offense have not changed since prior to 1973. How is that written to attack your religion? Despite propaganda to the contrary, it wasn't even Hildebran's bill that got passed - his died in the House.
Second, what does the number of women that I have slept with have to do with violating the law, especially as relates to bigamy? There are clear and distinct guidelines on what is legal, and what is not, and those haven't changed in over 30 years.
Dale,
True, but the FLDS have come up against this over and over - and have yet to win a case declaring that they have a right to plural marriages.
You are right though about riding - if you haven't done it, you don't understand it...
LOL blues
"You are right though about riding - if you haven't done it, you don't understand it..."
The same goes for the FLDS religion.
As far as racism goes you were leaning that way yesterday towards white people
"what does the number of women that I have slept with have to do with violating the law, especially as relates to bigamy?"
You don't know?
Are you serious?
You really don't know?
Cmon, are you serious?
Get outta here.... you can't be serious.
Why is "purporting" non licensed bigamy wrong? Doesn't it have something to do with the amount of women a man sleeps with?
Hello Regina.
Ok, I need to ask something.
If we are good and we will be in heaven if we act by how our religion has told us to, then why in the "f" mormon church they are converting our holocaust ancestors. This is so unrespectful, and so full of it that it makes me really angry. Because just like we respect others religions, and dont "convert" anyone, we dont want to be baptized for "salvation" by these jerks!. I mean, really, its like if when someone died we applied a brit mila on their dead body!!!!!!!!!!!!! STUPID HUH?
Buy microfilms and data to convert EVERY SINGLE JEWISH SOUL from the holocaust into mormonism???????????????????????????''
People who fought for their religious beliefs?
LDS is full of it!!!!!!! Call me whatever you want, a razist, whatever, they are full of it, they dont respect, they dont respect anyone who is different from them. FLDS is different, i hope, i mean, i know Allen and I hope none of them agree for something like this...... But this was the end to show that they give a damn on others religions, they want to "own" the world, distroy all religions, even FLDS and simply convert the whole world into "mormons".... STUPID PEOPLE---
There you know where this anti FLDS situation began from, the LDS are nothing but hateful people, full of hate and have NO RESPECT for others.
Yikes, what an ill informed rant that was.
you didnt know about the lds wanting to convert all the dead sholocaust souls to mormonism and erasing their data from the microfilms?
Don't be silly, not just Jews.
ALL SOULS.
And do you really believe that somebody can be converted to something against their will?
If you thought you had the truth about something wouldn't you want to share it with as many people as possible?
To give them the opportunity to decide for themselves?
I can think of nothing more respectful to those individuals.
No I dont believe they can convert a soul, but they still are changing history data, and second, no i dont believe they are sharing the best they know, cause they should know these people died knowing they died for the best they had, if they wanted to convert into mormonism they would of done it
Troll on through Maayan. You are obviously not in a rational mood.
They died because somebody filled with blind hate decided that they should die and too many Germans turned a blind eye to the persecution and destruction.
It would not have mattered to the Nazis if they proclaimed or denied their faith. Simply being jewish was the reason for it.
you know what, i had family that died there, and they died there because they defended their religion, they did not convert to save their lifes, they died because they knew they belonged where they wanted to belong. so dont tell me its just a moody thing, its something so unrespectful like me going now and throwing a sack full of dog dodo on the lds mormon church, and saying its the best so they can grow their plants!!!!
cmon, its not logical, and its something so unrespectful that it just makes them full of it.
Maayan,
The Mormon Church does not not not perform temple ordinances for Jewish holocaust victims.
They did, at one time. But they do not anymore, by request of Jewish leaders. Previous entries were deleted from the records in 1995.
Mayaan,
What makes you think it's about you? Should I ask the permission of my children or grandchildren to do anything? You are offended for a reason that makes no sense to me.
well wake up and smell the cofee, read the news, they are STILL DOING IT
Dale,
Its our religion and hour history, its disrispectful what these people are doing.
How does it disrespect you? You are so full have anger and hate. I would be honored if you wanted to say prayers for my ancestors. I would be honored if you wanted to share truths with them.
If there is no truth to Mormonism then it ammounts to nothing. If there is truth to Mormonism, then how wonderful it is that those that did not have the chance to accept it on this earth will have that opportunity.
But your rant is nothing more than disruptive racism and false rumor so I don't think I'll discuss it further wih you at this time.
Yikes, I was typing too fast. Please excuse my spelling errors.
This is serious, imagine a person, defending its bible, and germans saying if you dont piss on your torah we will kill you, and they DONT PISS ON THE TORAH, CAUSE ITS SACRED, ITS WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN, and they get killed for not pissing it, and suddenly………. LDS THINKS THEY ARE G-D AND THEY BAPTIZE THESE PEOPLE because they think they have the rights because they bought the data.
and you tell me i am a razist?
these people are no different than hitler, either you are what they are or you are nothing!!!
a big f word!!
Mayaan,
I can't have this conversation in two different places. Pick one place where I can ignore you please. ;-)
Dale, you are LDS, so you think its correct. I dont, I think only a mind full of fungus would do something like that. Its changing history, its to prophane a religion. (sorry, my mispelling is because english is not my first language).
If you forgive my spelling I will forgive yours.
;-)
And nothing is being changed in history.
Also, it would be pretty silly for me to be LDS if I didn't believe in it.
Dale
In judaism when you want to marry someone, they ask you for your parents ketuva and your rabbis recomendation etc. Some sinagoges dont let people get married even if they have a ketuva because they had a conversion on some side of the family. so imagine something like when you want to get married and your great grandfather was a MORMON! ROFL!!!!!!
So they ARE "F" with us........ do you get it?
cause it is on the convertion baptism list, its very dangerous
Maayan,
Only a direct descendant who is a member of the LDS church can submit the name of holocaust victim.
And if one of your LDS cousins has submitted your great grandfather's name, keep in mind that your great grandfather's spirit is not forced into becoming a "Mormon". LDS believe in the afterlife, and that the spirit retains intelligence, personality, and the ability to choose.
Maybe your great grandfather's spirit doesn't want his name in temple. But what if he DOES? What if he appeared in a dream to your LDS cousin, and said, "Take my name to the temple." Do you want your LDS cousin to ignore him?
THAT would be disrespectful.
Lol
i dont have lds cousins
hahaha
all my family is jewish, and i hope it stays that way.
cmon, dont talk to me about dreams, i mean so if you dream kill osama bin laden you will travel and look for him? cause if you dont it would be disrispectful?
lol
btw, where will we continue hahaha
Maayan,
How is it "changing history" ? It doesn't change anything that happened in the mortal life.
But since you are so bent on de-railing Regina's blog, I'm going to go on to a different subject. I have a question for you.
If Anne Frank's father had been approached by a 30-year-old financially successful Jew who lived in New York City about marrying his 14-year-old daughter Anne and taking her out of Germany, would Mr. Frank have been wrong in permitting the marriage?
Regina, you were a sane voice crying out in a bigotry hurricane.
My ladies and I were sad to see you leave Brooke's blog. We do respect your reasons.
If everyone followed TXBluesman's mantra, we never would have had a nation of our own here in America. We would still be subjects of the British Crown. Blacks would still be at the back of the bus with this guy in charge.
Plural marriage will eventually be decriminalized. I hope that people realize we are families, paying taxes and raising children, just like anyone else.
My 2nd oldest daughter is 8 and she wants to understand how people can be so hateful.
Regina, what should I tell her?
Plural Man,
Tell your daughter how life is full of contrasts. That if everyone was the same, we'd have no standard by which to measure good and bad, hurtful or kind, etc.
That's what I used to tell my boys when they confronted horrible bigotry and cruelty. By seeing how hateful some people are, we can appreciate how wonderful others are. And it gives us a very real reason for making sure we are very careful with how we treat people. In knowing from experience how deeply hateful words hurt, we can make a real commitment to never use them toward anyone.
Here is a link with some information on the issues between Mormons and Jew concerning posthumus baptism.
Mormon-Jewish Controversy
Plural Man, I forgot, teach your daughter to throw a straight punch, too!
Sometimes knowing how to deliver a good pop in the nose is a useful tool.....
dangerous situation indeed for future generations. I insist LDS leaders are dangerous. Now tell me, if they don't even respect what they sign then do some of you believe now that they are the ones who want to destroy FLDS? I mean its not convenient for them to have people who practice their religion like they should including plural marriage etc.. So they decide to make a war and hurt people and step on them just to show they rule the world.
Maayan,
Certainly the LDS Church would never publically admit to conspiring to destroy the FLDS, or other fundamental Mormon communities. On the other hand, I am sure you are correct that they exert a great deal of influence on those who have the choice to live and let live or persecute and prosecute. The LDS Church in Utah and Arizona "own" many of the politicians and public figures. They are the money behind the campaigns. They can make or break a business....
And I am sure that the powers that be, within the CHurch, have all sorts of "off the record" discussions and action agendas....
Anon,
That was a false statement. The Jewish Anti Defamation League is still fighting with Flds about sealing deseased members of the Jewish faith to LDS. Yes, they have asked them to stop, but they haven't.
LDS and FLDS have the very same doctrines and covenants. LDS just doesn't practice polygamy.
Anon,
The link I provided a few posts back is from a Jewish Heritage site and it discusses how there was an agreement in 1995 to stop the posthumous baptisms and to rectify the records and how the agreement was broken and the practice still continues. In fact, i believe the site has a link to some very recent research proving it is still being done...
nope, its not FLDS, FLDS has NOTHING to do with it, they want to live their lifes and leave others live theirs, not like LDS who try and go knocking on every door to see who they convince...hmmm, Im trying to figure out how much they pay them for doing this...
Anon, Although their doctrines and covenants are the same, the day to day living is considerably different. And the differece isn't just the practice of The Principle. FLDS have assumed a 'live and let live' position regarding the rest of the world, whereas LDS constantly attempts to win converts. Including the rather duplicitous practice of baptizing the dead, without the consent of the living heirs to those deceased....
Maayan, I'm not sure that the pairs of young LDS missionaries you see everywhere get paid, at all. They may even have to raise some of the expense of going on their missions themselves. I think that other LDS members have them stay in their homes and provide meals. The church may provide a small living stipend....
FLDS people dont want to convert anybody, in fact, its difficult to become an FLDS for what I hear....
But if you wanna be a mormon, well, just go and say hey guys, i want to come here, and they will convert you as fast as you say 1 2 3....
So you see, i am sure, FLDS are more religious from the heart than from anything else.
Well you want to know what is funny, they only go and try to convert the people they know they can........ here they dont dare to come to our neighborhood, or try to convert people here, and here in monterrey, you would laugh, when they came here and wanted to build their church, the catholic people from monterrey made big manifestations and marched and made them sell their land and go away. So they build their church in a half an hour drive road...............................
Most religious groups are extremely intolerant of others.
Some of them talk a good game...all about ecumenalism and so on, but comes time to pass the plate!!!...Wahoo!!! see how willing to share and be tolerant they are!!!!
The few exceptions I've experienced have been the Quakers, the UU's, and now the FLDS.....
rericson has left a new comment on the post "FLDS and Racism":
Maayan, I'm not sure that the pairs of young LDS missionaries you see everywhere get paid, at all. They may even have to raise some of the expense of going on their missions themselves. I think that other LDS members have them stay in their homes and provide meals. The church may provide a small living stipend....
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They pay their own way. There are about 50,000 of them at any given time.
here they dont dare to come to our neighborhood, or try to convert people here, and here in monterrey, you would laugh, when they came here and wanted to build their church, the catholic people from monterrey made big manifestations and marched and made them sell their land and go away.
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So you think it funny that they were persecuted and driven off then?
I find that very offensive that you find that funny. Isn't that what was done to the Jews all throughout history? You are as intolerant as those who persecute you.
Well, when it comes to religious tolerance, i guess its graded on a personal basis, and not in a religious basis. All religions have their "not accepting" a different lifestyle, and that is why its religious intolerance.
FLDS cant marry someone out of their religion, neither can we, i mean, and that is religious intolerance... so its a difficult issue to talk about. In my perspective
The few exceptions I've experienced have been the Quakers, the UU's, and now the FLDS.....
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I've never met any Quakers and I'm not sure what UU's are but I have met a few FLDS and they are good people. Being LDS i know quite a few of them and they are good people too. I have found that most Mormons of all types to be fair and tolerant people.
So you think it funny that they were persecuted and driven off then?
I find that very offensive that you find that funny. Isn't that what was done to the Jews all throughout history? You are as intolerant as those who persecute you.
NO DALE, I dont think its funny, im NOT LIKING LDS, not even a little cause they are messing with my people, my religion and my history, and THAT i dont tolerate.
Here they are not runned off cause they dont come here, cause when you insist people HAVE to think like you do, and HAVE to believe in what you do, then its the moment when they wont like you, cause you see, its a democratic country, we have the right to think and feel how ever we want to, and NO I DONT TOLERATE people knocking on my door trying to BRAINWASH me, instead of doing good deeds like helping the poor, fundraising something.....who knows.
NO DALE, I dont think its funny, im NOT LIKING LDS, not even a little cause they are messing with my people, my religion and my history, and THAT i dont tolerate.
Here they are not runned off cause they dont come here, cause when you insist people HAVE to think like you do, and HAVE to believe in what you do, then its the moment when they wont like you, cause you see, its a democratic country, we have the right to think and feel how ever we want to, and NO I DONT TOLERATE people knocking on my door trying to BRAINWASH me, instead of doing good deeds like helping the poor, fundraising something.....who knows.
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As I said yesterday you are ill informed.
Nobody wants to force you to believe something that you don't want to believe. Nobody wants to brainwash you about anything.
As for good deeds, I don't think I need to brag about that but if you were interested in learning about what my church really does the info is available out there.
Reg,
I find the hate and intolerance here just as bad as on Brooke's blog. Maybe I'll return when you put up another post. But this thread has become one of intolerance.
Dale, UUs are Unitarian Universalist.....
I've known several LDS who, individually were wonderful people. We had neighbors for many years who would do anything, for anyone...
but as a church, we have a large population of LDS in our community and I NEVER see them participating in anything ...not the local council of churches...not the various local fund raisers where different churches and shuls set up tables....
not any of the local drives for united way....never at any of the ethnic days where there are always festivities and such at the high school ...and again, lots of local churches and shuls set up table...but never, ever LDS...they are invisible....
And we have several local 'programs' that depend on volunteerism....and local "input" groups...LDS are not there...
NOw the Quakers and the UU are known for giving to any7one who needs...no questions asked...help is freely offered...and they are the first ones to offer their space when there is a church or shul flooded or burned....they are the first to set up collection plaaces for the soldiers....for children's causes...
Since you are here then maybe I'll stick around for a few minutes but maayan is broadcasting nothing but hatred towards me and my people.
Dale, I posted about "Marriage" a little while ago...not many readers, yet...
I think Maayan is just genuinely upset about the issue of baptizing posthumously....For some of us, it's a really painful subject....
I know if I let loose what I think of the topic, probably no one would ever speak to me again!!!!!
The idea that people who family members knew and grew up with and died with, in the ghettos of Europe, because they were observant Jews, who would NEVER convert, being baptized, and their names inscribed in someone's books and records as Christians, of any denomination, is the worst of travesties!!!!!!!
I don't want to drive you away. And I certainly am not attacking you personally. You have lways been lovely....but the LDS church has some very dirty current laundry!!!!!!
And I sure don't expect you to defend them, I know these are not your personal choices....
Heck, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church for a large part of my youth...and you REALLY don't want to hear what I have to say about that group!!!
But there are some wonderful individuals, who, through no fault of their own, happen to be catholics...*smile*
Reg,
Have you asked them to join? Quite often we find ourselves shunned. The protestant christians won't let us participate in their interfaith organizations because they think we are a "cult".
I suspect also that quite a bit is done in your community but is done quietly.
There is a problem with Mormon culture as I see it. Because we have been driven from place to place, because we have truly been persecuted, our people killed, we do tend to be introvertive as a society. That goes for the whole culture (not the religion) and the FLDS are an extreme example of that.
Wow, my fingers and brain sure were not in sync in those last couple of posts!
Sorry about that....
Ahh, I know quite a few good Catholics too. While I certainly don't support their doctrine it makes me very happy to see how much the LDS charitible organizations and the Catholic charitible organizations actually work together. Often times pooling money/resources to get the job done.
If you only knew...
So Dale....Go read what I wrote about what little I know about FLDS and marriage.....
I'm trying so hard to understand all the nuances of being sealed...and how different the many relationships, and their purposes, are....
Dale
You are missunderstanding me.
I have nothing against you, I dont know you, how can I say if you are good or bad. I do have my feelings against the leaders of your church (some) for what they are doing to our people, for you its normal, natural and doesnt hurt, but for my people it does. And by this I am not saying ALL YOUR LEADERS are like this............. I know some rabbis who can be "SB", but that doesnt mean we all are, and we all know that there are some people who where "molested" in the FLDS but not because of thatthen ALL FLDS ARE MOLESTERS, PEDOPHILES, BLA BLA BLA, because this is why we are here right? we cant generalize, its like me saying all germans are nazis... Its not like that.......
I dont want to hurt your feelings, never wanted to, im not that kind of person and i am NOT A BIGOT, but here you have to accept that if these people died for what they where........ not even by PROXY or by whatever they should be baptized. The church leaders promised 1995 they wouldnt do it anymore, and they are doing it..... So yes, I am angry, because I wouldnt want to be baptized by any LDS or FLDS by proxy or by whatever....... And if their families dont want it, LDS has to respect it........ even if you dream it has to be done, you are messing with someone elses beliefs.
Dale, My mother had cousins and aunts and uncles who died in Bergen Belsen....these ere people she had known all of her life. People whom she had visited and stayed with when she went abroad. People who had stayed with my grandmother when they came here. These people were my family. They were devout Jews. They were not Christian. They had no desire to be Christian, The mere idea that someone would find one of their names and baptize them in absentia....posthumously....and then inscribe in some document that they were Christian is just beyond my ability to conceptualize. How anyone could even dream up such a scheme....
I guess it's another thing I have to learn about...but I do think it's pretty dreadful.....
Reg,
Your views show a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine. But I do agree that if not properly understood it can lead to the very strong hurtful feelings experienced by some. I will write something about it and either post it on my blog or email it to you sometime this week.
Dale...I'd appreciate that...or even point me to some cogent explanation, on line...I haven't ever been able to find one....
We need to leave religion out of this. The FLDS hides behind the religious sanction when its fact its a world of male dominated sexual abuse. Anyone who can't see this clearly, should probably sign up to become another one of Merill Jessops wives and come back and blog to us about what goes on.
Carolyn Jessop is a brave and courageous women, not an author.
Her story is told to inform. If she makes money off of it, good for her. After living a life in hell, she deserves it.
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