I have been grappling for several days with how to succinctly capture the sentiments I have heard fom my friends in the FLDS community concerning the public dissemination of some of Warren Jeffs writings. The emotions are so big, and so deep, I have felt unqualified. I have felt as though I wouldn't be able to do justice to the depth of the feelings people are experiencing.
I don't want to comment on the legality of the search warrants, or how the papers were gotten. That is for the lawyers and courts. The reality is, no matter the decision of the courts, the papers are "out there", and no one can take them out of the minds and hearts of those who have read them. If nothing else, the jury pool has been forever tainted. They have read the private writings, out of context, of the leader of this group of people.
I've read some of the comments being made by the naysayers, trolls, and critics. They say the FLDS should read these papers. That it will show them a side of their prophet they do not know. They say the papers are "proof" of Warren Jeffs' bad character, etc. These are the same people who lapped up the contents of Merrianne's diary when her ad litem made them public. The private writings of a young lady in love. These are the people who thrive on the salacious, and can find it wherever they go.
Some of the open minded individuals involved in the dialogue say they welcome the comments and explanations about the writings, from the members of the FLDS community, from those persons who know Warren Jeffs and can put the statements and thoughts into context. Most of these people are well meaning, albeit naive about the character of the people in the community.
So....as I was struggling with how to approach this, Pliggy wrote a comment to another post. It comes as close as anyone has thus far, to capturing what was so ellusive for me.
"It is a matter of dignity. Those writing are personal and private, and the fact that they are public on any blog is deeply disturbing. Just imagine your good father writing everything he thought about your mother and siblings on a personal basis becoming public because the government raided his bedroom. Tell me you would dignify anyone who discussed it with your comments. I would never "listen to her reason it is newsworthy" I couldn't care less."
The reaction of the FLDS community has nothing, what so ever, to do with content. The content actually held no real surprises. Everyone was well aware of the almost compulsively organized aspect of Warren Jeffs personality. Everyone is aware of how detail oriented he is. This is a man who's life and habits have been very public within the community for as long as most can remember. The fact that the minutia of his daily life was chronicled is not shocking.
The fact that it has been made public, for all of the voyeurs of the salacious to pore over, is what is disturbing. That it feeds the trolls is disturbing. That it puts the day when peace and quiet can return that much further away is disturbing.
For so many reasons, the FLDS are a very private people. Even within their own community. People are quiet and private. They spend much of their time in "prayer through activity", and in reflection and giving glory to God, through work and family life. They do not spend time chit chatting with each other, about each other. There is a tremendous respect for one another's privacy. There is a true and much practiced belief that God is our judge, not each other. And a firm belief that we are all human and therefore all sinners and the old adage of "people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones" is exemplified in their daily lives of respect and non-intrusion. And none of this is to say they don't interact with one another. Or to say there aren't friendships and socializing. Because there is. On the other hand, they have worked hard, and continue to do so, at eliminating that 'nosy parker' aspect of life we humans are often so fond of.
It serves no purpose save to put people at odds with one another.
By prying into the private thinking, completely absent context, and with no opportunity for explanation, of Warren Jeffs, we show abject disrespect for his community, for his people, and for their right to privacy concerning their religious leader and his thoughts.
I don't know if I have even begun to give a working understanding of the intense emotions being felt. I hope I have. I hope others will expand this. I hope others will use this as a starting point for thinking about, and maybe discussing, how we as humans often cross lines we should not cross. How some things simply are none of our business. We each are entitled to privacy of thought.
7 years ago
43 comments:
"childbride" you're either a troll or you're telling a bald faced lie!
Oh! Either way you're lying!
I don't know about that, childbride. I've read many accounts of those that have left the FLDS and the only ones that no longer have contact with their families are the ones that choose it for themselves.
CHEESE!!!!!!!!!
I'm so glad to "see" you!
I miss your humor...and jabs!
Anyway, I figured this was a troll, but I wanted someone else to say so first....I take enough heat!
And the comments are completely off topic, anyway!
MPB made some interesting comments on her blog. You might want to take a look....
She's been very nice to me....and very supportive...
http://pluralwife.blogspot.com/
Rericson:
What about the highly salacious and carefully selected revealations you and Billy Boy made against Natalie Malonis? Please spare us the hypocritical outrage. It is you who are the outrage. You and all the FLDS apologists and pedophile pampering pity pimps.
It doesn't matter what the FLDS believes as far as the privacy of the writings go, they are a matter of public record now.
There was a simple way for the writings to remain private - and that was to obey the laws of the State of Texas and the United States. When they chose not to do so, then their actions resulted in the documents being made public as evidence.
Since the writings contain Warren's admissions of criminal acts, it is hard to dismiss them or to keep them secret.
The rest of the public have a right to know what is happening in the case - and court records are to be open to the public.
Again, the easy solution was for the FLDS to obey the law. Then none of this would be an issue.
Bluesman, go back and smoke some more paote, I am sure that is legal. Just like your buddy Rozita's phone call.
Bluesman,
I wrote this as an attempt to explain the absence of FLDS participation or defense of the documents. I believe it is important that people understand that they are staying away from the discussions, not because of the content, but rather on principle.
To the anon poster, I have no idea what you are talking about concerning whomever you are calling "billy boy" and Natalie Malonis. I have never had anything to do with anyone about anything concerning her. Period.
R., since this is YOUR Blog, can you delete TBM?????
Neat! I may start one myself. Since all that is going on at Brooke's blog is Street and Chloe debating(?) nothing interesting happening.
As to the documents, since as on now, no one has been proven guilty of anything, no trial has been held, only indictments, the excuse for the release of these documents was over a child custody case. Nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of anyone. Simply a CYA response of the Texas court. If indeed it can be called a court.
R. You may delete this after TBM sees it. :-) I do not wish to bring more stress to your life.
There is no way I would ever go to brooks blog again after what she has done to the FLDS!To throw a leaders private life to the ravenous wolves like she did after sideling up to the FLDS and acting like she was a friend is the kind of person a group would call thier worst enemy.
Childbride, you destroyed your own life when you took a blessing and threw it out the window, and turned your back on your religion if you didn't want to get married you should have said so, you had that right and you knew it, you knew it was right to accept the blessing, you knew it and you blew it. To try and justify your sins by blaming them on others is extremely vile! It sounds like you are not happy, you chose the life you are living now, if your not happy turn your life around and go do better, just stop blaming it on Uncle Warren, don't you think he has suffered enough?
annony, stop the self righteousness already,will ya
it is you who are pitiful, imagine, taking hundreds of children and putting them through the trauma they have suffered and then try to justify it by calling the flds "pimps" It reveals your disgusting character
Hey BLUES, remember the first amendment? you know? the one you always set aside when talking about the FLDS? got anymore TJ quotes for me? I have a case law for you but I think you would just toss it aside because your God is the law!
To me it was pretty clear that the entire purpose of attaching these documents as exhibits in that ridiculous petition for a trust fund was to get them out before there was a chance to get the warrants quashed.
It was a back door to get Merrill or Willie on record, whcih they knew was doubtful, and to get these public.
It was deliberately introducing poison into the water supply....
It's an insidious act....
And it almost guarantees that no FLDS man will get a fair trial.
If individuals start posting mean, miserable garbage here, I will put the comments on moderation and not publish anything that does not contribute to the discussion. Negative remarks are fine, if they are on topic. Nasty meanness is not fine.
Sorry R. I hope you do not have to put your blog on moderation. You started your own blog to have honest discussion, not to read the rantings of the local lunatics.
It is really sad-sickening the hate being displayed in the comments and blogs.
Pliggy,
Were I a member of the NAC, then yes, it would be legal for me to use peyote. I'm not, and I don't. It doesn't surprise me that you bring race into this every chance you get though. It is part of the racist heritage of your faith.
Carol,
She is free to publish or not publish whomever she likes. It is her blog. I don't believe that she will censor me though, since she knows that I publish all sides of the issue on my blog. She also realizes that although I disagree with her on many issues and decisions, I have always been open to discussing the issues.
I don't think that she has such a small mind that she would feel the need to eliminate any contrary voices.
Disagreement does not equal hate or bigotry, despite what some would label it.
Mhojho,
My God is Natures God, which is revealed not through miracles and so-called revelations to man, but through what surrounds you. Part of that design was the gift of reason, and with that came laws of man. Under our Constitution, one may believe anything that they wish, but they may not act on such beliefs that are contrary to the law. Thus far there is no case law that states that bigamy or underage marriage is legal or acceptable under the guise of religion.
Blues, the case law I was thinking of had to do with one jewish carpenter brought before pontius pilate, who was found innocent but turned over to the masses who crucified him, because pilate didn't have the spine to set him free , now compare this to Warren Jeffs who was crucified in the media before his trial, THEY HAD TO FIND HIM GUILTY or face the wrath of the masses, now, that being said, the reynolds decision was contrary to the first amendment, not even you can say it wasn't(truthfully)this brings us to the conclusion of religious persecution at its worst and constitutional freedoms denied to an unpopular religion!
Blues, it is part of the tyranny of your beliefs to think it is all about the "law". It is probably your parents fault too, and doesn't surprise me either.
Mhojho,
Since the myth of the Jews turning Jesus over to Pilate is: 1) not factual, and 2) anti-Semitic propaganda, why would that case affect me or my reasoning?
Also, you misunderstand the Free Exercise clause, which was never interpreted to allow one to violate a general law. Jefferson, for one, always understood the distinction between beliefs and acts. For your position to be correct, then you would have to allow me to have a similar freedom to pursue my religion.
As a Native American, I can legitimately hold a belief that the desecration of our holy sites is punishable by death. Do I have the right to go after people that have built houses on our old land? Because under the scenario that you propose, I would have as much right to hunt down and kill people as the FLDS have to marry and sexually assault underage girls.
To paraphrase Jefferson, true religious freedom is to require that all religions follow the law.
Pliggy,
Actually my parents had different beliefs, and neither were lawyers. It is, however, your parents fault that you believe that felony behavior is acceptable conduct. I feel sorry for you, since you never had a chance to be raised in a non-racist, non-felonious environment. It is really a shame.
I personally think there are many laws that aren't worth following. And I always taught my children that. Well, not that I taught them to deliberately break the law,...
What I taught them was that they had to make choices, and if they made a choice, no matter how good a choice it is, if it's in conflict with the law, and they get caught, they own it!
Actually, those lessons started with one or more of them disagreeing with school rules....
It progressed to discussions about some laws...
Needless to say, we, as a family, had a number of challenges to overcome as the boys were growing up! On the other hand, each of them, as adults, are wonderful, thinking, caring individuals, who take responsibility for all of their own behaviors...
Also, perhaps, for the sake of not being offensive, ergo allowing reasonable, and not entirely defensive dialogue, sometimes we could search for language that isn't inherently inflamatory, without losing the gist of what we want to say?
A local law that conflicts with a State law is no law at all.
A State law that conflicts with a Federal law is no law at all.
A Federal law that conflicts with the Constitution is no law at all.
A Constitutional provision that conflicts with a Law from God is no law at all.
We must all follow the highest laws we have been given. For the FLDS that means following the law of Celestial marriage.
Blues,
"Since the myth of the Jews turning Jesus over to Pilate is: 1) not factual, and 2) anti-Semitic propaganda, why would that case affect me or my reasoning?"
1) I believe the bible is a document that is 2008 years old.
2) Just because you do not believe the bible to be true does not make it so, and the fact that you have to go to school to be taught that the bible is not true makes you a government directed puppet.
3) your God is natures god, the law surrounds us doesn't it, so your god IS the law, thanks for the clarification!
4) "As a Native American, I can legitimately hold a belief that the desecration of our holy sites is punishable by death."
To start I do not support the way the lands were taken from the native americans!
Your ancestors did hunt down and kill people who desecrated thier holy sites!
5) "I would have as much right to hunt down and kill people as the FLDS have to marry and sexually assault underage girls."
and last but not least the theory
that the FLDS main belief is to assault underage girls this statement is a cop out, and has undertones of a fear that the flds are going to rule the world if they are allowed to continue in thier quest to perfect thier lives and become like god!
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
Thomas Jefferson
This statement says it all
Regina,
You have that option - it's called civil disobedience, but to be truly civil disobedience, you have to stand up and say what you are doing and why. The FLDS haven't done that.
Dale,
Fortunately, that is not the way the law works. Any supposedly conflicting laws are to be construed in such a way as to give effect to both of the laws. Finally, in this nation, disobeying a law based on the fact that it conflicts with 'God's Law' is apt to land you in prison.
mhojho,
It doesn't surprise me that most of your last post is also factually incorrect.
1) The bible is not 2008 years old, since the books that constituted the New Testament were not determined until the Council of Nicea, convened in 325 A.D. by the pagan Roman Emperor Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus (commonly known as Constantine). At this Council, which only 13-18% of the bishops of the church attended, the books which were to be included were determined. As a sidenote, Saint Nicholas (yeah, the one known as Santa Claus) was ejected from the Council after he assaulted on of the Arian bishops that opposed the Emperor's choices of Gospels... Even one of the earliest of the New Testament books, 1 Corinthians, dates only to about c. 55 A.D., thus being only 1953 years old.
2) School did not teach me that the bible was not true, nor did any of my academic classes address it.
3) LOL, that shows why most of your statements lack logical coherence.
4) It is still being done. The Stockbridge-Munsie tribe recently lost a court case that effectively took reservation land away to give to whites. If your position on freedom of religion were true, then this tribe would be legally able to hunt down and kill these whites in this day and age. Guess what - it is still illegal.
5) It's not a cop out. Texas law states that sexual activity with a minor is in fact, sexual assault. If you want to continue to allow the FLDS men to have babies with underage girls, then you are, in fact, condoning sexual assault.
blues, my position on freedom has nothing to do with murder,or sexual assault, it is not me that wants to murder the whites, thats your statement, to make a law against a religion is a violation of the constitution, as far as your supposed assaults that you keep bringing up look no further than your own community, all of your posts attack the flds, go attack your own community,maybe start at the reservation,your racial statements say alot about you!
I shouldn't have thrown out the 2008 number without researching it thats a little ticky, however I don't believe the bible just because a roman emporer decided to put it together I think you missed the point, there is a lot of good that can be gleaned from it if you are not looking for evil!
land is being taken away from many different people not just your people! Thats also the law apparently, you just happen to be in disagreement with it,so I guess you will have to start killing the whites for it, LOL
Rericson, just so im not always off topic:) I think uncle warrens papers are none of anyones business
period, its just a smear campaign!
"Fortunately, that is not the way the law works. Any supposedly conflicting laws are to be construed in such a way as to give effect to both of the laws. Finally, in this nation, disobeying a law based on the fact that it conflicts with 'God's Law' is apt to land you in prison."
Blues,
Pliggy is right about you. Your highest God is man's law. Little wonder you don't get it and probably never will. But don't be so dishonest in your answers. You know very well that a lower law that conflicts with a higher law is null and void.
As for your comment about prison...better to be in prison for now then prison for eternity. That's what failing to achieve Celestial glory is, blues, it's prison because then you can progress no further.
I can think of no greater hell than the knowledge that I could have become like God but lacked the will because I was afraid of men and their laws/prison.
And so that I'm not off topic...I'm sure that these private journals are going to be tossed out as inadmissible in any court because of the way they were obtained. They came from the raid on the ranch right? Illegal search and seizure. While I don't have faith in the lower courts because they are basically directed by what the prosecutors want I do have faith in the higher courts.
"each of them, as adults, are wonderful, thinking, caring individuals, who take responsibility for all of their own behaviors..."
unless they don't like sweet potato french fries... :O) j/k
Anyone who defends laws against religious covenants between willing participants, laws that are only broken by "purporting" to covenant within their own religion; would defend Jim Crow laws, and would defend Hitler. They definitely couldn't defend smoking peyote in the same discussion without looking like a fool, or a bigot.
"Texas law states that sexual activity with a minor is in fact, sexual assault.
That is only if you don't have a license by the state. And is never prosecuted unless there is a complaint. You would find more of that in your local high school than you did at the YFZ.
Blues:
"it's called civil disobedience, but to be truly civil disobedience, you have to stand up and say what you are doing and why. The FLDS haven't done that."
Obviously you are way behind in the story.
mhojho,
I was using the 'murder' as an example, just as I have used the old practice of blood atonement as an example in the past. If one is acceptable in the name of religion, then the other is also acceptable, and society descends into anarchy.
I never said that the bible did not have good in it, on the contrary, I believe that it did, and I believe that man can learn a great deal by studying it and other religious texts - I just don't believe that Jesus was God, nor in any other 'revealed' religion.
Dale,
You need to look at the rules of statutory construction. A local ordinance (depending on the state and its structure of state and local government) will only be nullified by a court if there is no way to give effect to both the local law and the state or federal law.
As to the dictations? Some were seized at the time Warren Jeffs was arrested - those will certainly get in, some were seized under the second Texas warrant (which will likely get in at trial, and would have to be thrown out on appeal), and some were seized under the Federal warrant (which will likely not be suppressed).
Bluesman,
Unless my memory is more 'shot' than I think, the Federal warrant was predicated on findings and observations of the local warrant. If the challenge to the local warrant is sucessful, out goes the Federal....
So right now, it's a wait and see...
Problem is the backdoor that Natalie Malonis, and whomever her 'supporters' were/are, used is highly questionable, and most certainly unethical. Even the fact that Walther refused to seal the documents speaks to the underlying bias and, here's your favorite word, bigotry that is pervasive. Walther, unless he is a complete dolt, knew the effect these documents could have on the jury pool, and elected to allow them to be public despite that knowledge.
As for the FLDS' community's reaction, I just wanted to let folks know it was a highly personal affront that keeps them from commenting, and not the content. And I believe we should respect that position and leave members of the community out of the discussion about the documents. Which you have done, here, and for that I thank you.
oops...
pliggy, you're right...their behavior was close to mutinous over the sweet potato fries...but they won't deny it!!!!!!
And the steak was really good!
Pliggy showed me a simple marinade...
We had filet mignon, which I NEVER marinade...it's just so tender...
but he suggested a marinade of 2 parts soy sauce and 1 part mollasses.....YUMMMY!!!!!!!
I DO NOT suggest serving sweet potato fries as a side dish!!!!!
Regina,
We don't know what the Federal warrant was based on since it was sealed.
If it were based on other information, such as the dictations seized when Warren Jeffs was arrested, a CI, or other factors, it could very well survive a challenge, even if the Texas warrants were tossed...
"I DO NOT suggest serving sweet potato fries as a side dish!!!!!"
Hey, I liked it :)
Yes, it is such a federal crime to live this illegal religion. Who needs the Constitution, the First Amendment means nothing to anyone.
Oh no. This isn't going to turn into an anti-Kindred Spirits meeting where everybody starts exchanging recipes is it?
LOL, I love sweet potato fries.
Well, Pliggy, it is pretty clear that SCOTUS doesn't think that the First Amendment means what you think it means.
You are so 1879 Bluesy
Private thoughts are thoughts you keep to yourself. The warren jeffs dictations were just that dictations, written by warren jeffs, and then either issac jeffs or naomi jeffs transcribed them and archived them.
If you don't want your private thoughts seen, you don't write them down, nor allow others to transcribe them.
Rericson Warren Jeffs were private as you say, Yet you read them! you hypercrite!
Anon,
You're absolutly right. I read them as soon as they were posted. Before I really even gave it any thought....It was only after I started hearing the incredible hurt from friends that I started thinking about it...
And it isn't so much that I shouldn't have read them, they were in the news and easily available, but I should have been more sensitive to the feelings of the FLDS and I should have pushed Brooke much sooner to axcknowledge the FLDS' community reaction....
Regina, You are a brave lady to stand up as you have, and I for one have much good feelings for squaw ;) as Blues would say.
Blues,
Your hatred and anger for the way people treated you hundreds of years ago shines bright in all you do or say, no, it wasn't right, but to fester your malignant hate on others just because of what you feel like your ancestors went through is an abysmal life to live isn't it? I feel sorry for you. Oh, and make more predictions about the cases please, I always jump in glee when I see your predictions, since your like what 0-100 now? LOL
Thanks for your sentiments Dale, Allen has really helped you, and you have let common sense and the knowledge of right and wrong enter your head. Perfect.
Hey Cheese!!
In response to Carolyn Jessop's book, "Escape", I found myself transported into another mindset as I was allowed access into the goings on of some of the private lives of the FLDS women.
After reading many blogs regarding Ms. Jessop, her book detailing her life as well as her escape from Warren Jeffs' and Merill Jessops' version of "the perfect life", I couldn't help but wonder aloud where the self respect and integrity that these women of the 21st century should have, went lost.
Ms. Jessop, through courage and "piss and vinegar" of her own, as well as compassion and safety for her children, transformed, or downright saved her own life as well as that of her children leading them into a better world with freedom of expression and decision, the very ideals that this country was founded on. As abusive cowards and downright bullies, Warren Jeffs and Merill Jessop as well as most of the men involved in this selfish and irresponsible lifestyle that masks itself as a religion, intentionally stymied growth, intelligence, and personal choice simply to suit their own personal needs which consist of godlike narcissism, visions of personal grandeur and most of all, greed. How irresponsible that their religious "seeds" have created anywhere from 6 to 15 children per wife, on the average, most of whom will procreate just as many, as these young girls begin their descent into a journey of hell on earth as they become pubescent.
Brainwashing? You bet and in the utmost way. Mistakes that were passed down from generation to generation, uncorrected and never improved, merely lend way to future generational mistakes seemingly unescapable and unpreventable. I wonder how many children of the FLDS, if allowed tally, would be diagnosed as being mentally retarded or developmentally delayed due to genetic error. If marrying within family boundaries is allowed, the odds would have to be stacked against normal brain function and development. Sooner or later, as sisters marry the same man and produce cousins who reproduce cousins, the word "abuse" would have to come into play.
I'd like to hear from the women of the FLDS and their views of my thoughts. Be prepared to argue your points
Warren Jeffs is a pedophile and a child molester. There is nothing else to say about that man. He got what he deserves and quite frankly I hope he gets a dose of what he gave while in jail by men bigger and more powerful than he. Maybe then he'd understand what he did to the little girls. I'd say that justice would then be served.
I'd also like to know why the Blog Administrator either deletes comments or refuses to post them unless they support his FLDS view. Isnt' the point of a blog to hold discussions and hear different points of view? Just like everything else FLDS, its controlled and powered by weak men who control women.
How about a challenged conversation with me blog administrator? No holds barred, you and I discussing what Warren Jeffs is. Quite frankly I'd love to hear you attempt to defend him.
Pliggy - what exactly is your stance on the matter of Warren Jeffs?
I see you as a geek of sorts, who pretends to be of power in the unrealistic world of the FLDS.
Am I correct? Do you sexually assault children like Warren and the Jessops did?
WHO, in the name of God and Jesus Christ, could condone this mans actions? Forget about his beliefs, his actions against CHILDREN are an abomination!!! Why should he and his "private thoughts" be protected when the souls of the children he raped and sodimized were tourtured by this pedophile. Eternal damination is not enough for what he has done. May God have no mercy for such pure EVIL.
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